Talk:Janine Pavlara
No substantiation for claim... I looked hard for any proof that Pavlara was specifically chosen for Rand's abduction because she was still young to the power and had not achieved the agelesss look, and found none, and so inserted a verify tab at the end of this statement: : It was for this reason that she, along with Beldeine Nyram and Marith Riven, was chosen to participate in Rand's kidnapping. The next day I came back and found that the verify tab had been replaced by a citation for chapter 51 of LOC. Reading the whole chapter, I found only one passage that could possibly support the statement and it says this: :His eyes were the only part of him that could move; they slid toward the serving women, busy around one of the chests. It stood open, and they were lifting out a shallow tray. Some of those faces looked young, but the others. . . . They were all Aes Sedai, he was sure, the five young women only new enough that they had not yet assumed the agelessness, five to look at him and lull his suspicions while the others hid their faces. Jordan, Robert (2010-03-11). Lord of Chaos: Book Six of 'The Wheel of Time' (p. 919). Macmillan. Kindle Edition. The voice is Rand's voice, and he is speculating. He does not know for sure that his thoughts are true--his conclusion is reasonable, but it is still only speculation that the five young Aes Sedai were chosen specifically because the agelessness had not set in. But let's assume for the sake of argument that he is right. We run into a new problem: none of those five are named--they could be any five young Aes Sedai. And later on in the same chapter we find that the house where they are staying have a goodly number of Aes Sedai and there is no reason not to believe that Pevlara might not even have come to the Palace, but stayed at the house preparing for Rand's arrival. Perhaps they had six young Aes Sedai and only five were needed to carry the chest in which they sequestered Rand. On top of that, the train that took Rand away from Cairhien had a goodly number of Aes Sedai as well--all in on the mission, all culpable for his kidnapping and Pevlara could have been part of that group. The bottom line is we have no first line testimony that the Aes Sedai used the young ones because of their non-ageless usefullness--that is only speculation. And we have no one naming names at this point, so the five could have been any young Aes Sedai from the Tower. Are there only five Red sisters at the Tower who have not achieved the ageless look? That answer is probably unknowable without chatting with Mr. Jordan, may God rest his soul. Because of our lack of that knowledge not even a process of illimination would succeed in conclusively proving that Pevlara was one of them, and specifically chosen for her lack of agelessness. And now that I have bored most of you to tears, and probably incensed some of you to rampant anger, I suggest a quick, easy compromise. Add "it is speculated" to the start of the sentence identifying Pevlara with the non-ageless Aes Sedai scheme, and my objections are put to rest. On the other hand if there is further documentation to which I am not privy which sets the record straight, please enlighten me and I will publicly tender my apologies. I have been wrong before. I will be wrong again and I am not afraid to admit it when I am proven wrong. Pedantic 23:27, May 30, 2012 (UTC) :Way back in , when that embassy first meets with Rand, he makes all of the serving women lower their hoods to "confirm" that they are not Aes Sedai. Also, after this, Rand placed a limit on how many of the Aes Sedai can come to the palace at one: three. Having guaged Rand's strength, the Reds know that they need more than three of them to shield him. The only way to get more than three Aes Sedai into the throne room is to hide them among the serving women. If he were to check again, as he might, they would be found out. To get around this, they use Aes Sedai who haven't yet achieved the agelessness. ---- 13:58, May 31, 2012 (UTC) ::Willie, after giving it the night to kind of cook, (sigh) I came to the unhappy conclusion that WRT the conspiracy to use young Aes Sedai to lull Rand into a false sense of security, you are right. A blind man could see what the Aes Sedai had done. So, in that point, though all my t's are not crossed, nor are all my i's dotted, the conclusion is still inescapable--The Aes Sedai planned to use young sisters to mask their agelessness. My earlier remark that it would get thrown out of court (I erased it if you did not see it) is replaced by "who cares? That's not part of the charge in the first place. It's not an element that needs to be proven." ::WRT Pavlara's involvement, however, I still can't help but come to the conclusion that were we to try her in a court of law for her complicity, she would be convicted of being in on the conspiracy to kidnap Rand (a conclusion which is inescapable and which I have always supported), but not in the actual taking. The evidence is strong that she probably was one of the young Aes Sedai, but there is no "smoking gun." No one says "Pavlara was in on it." She does not confess to it, no Wise One chastises her for being dat'sang because she was in the party that actually kidnapped him. Rand does not name her, even when she comes to swear fealty. We cannot finger her through any kind of process of elimination. So, I still believe that the article needs to be amended to say something along the lines of "there is strong but not conclusive evidence that Pavlara was present when Rand was actually kidnapped, that she was one of the five young Aes Sedai who posed as servants..." And I believe that the articles discussing the the involvement of the other two Aes Sedai named in her article need to be amended likewise because those five "servants" are never identified by anyone. We really don't know who they were--we can only guess. Pedantic 11:20, June 1, 2012 (UTC)